Curse

Me NoFat · Feb 26, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

I have been trying to figure out for some time why farmers continue to over heal in every "Uber" farming build. Take this build for instance...

Cyclone Axe
Executioners Strike
Gladiators defense {Elite}
Bonetti's defense
Live Vic
Healing Sig
Healing Breeze
Mending

Not a bad build but there is wasted healing here. I have seen so many builds like the above. Substitute Watchful Spirit for anything but mending or shielding hands or healing touch....name it the options are endless. You have 2 skills that lower your chance of taking damage down to 25%. You have 4 healing skills of which you will never use 2 (heal sig and healing breeze). When you cyclone a large group you are getting enough healing from Liv Vic to keep your health at full.

When farming griffons/trolls/minos you will never need more than Liv Vic and Mending. If you do than you are doing something wrong. I also see more stances then needed all the time. You are only ever going to need bons def and glads def. When glads is recharging you just spam cyclone+liv vic. If you have a vamp axe then you get health from liv vic and your vamp mod so healing is never an issue. You have a constant 75% chance to block incoming melee attacks. You do constant high damage with cyclone and constant healing in the process.

My next rant

Now lets talk damage to all you cyclone farmers. Many of you seem to use SoJ in favor of Glads Def. This is a very bad choice. You cannot as a Warrior go above 12 in Smite but you can in Tactics. You can get your Tactics as high as 16 (max 12 +3 sup + 1 helm) without having anything other than armor and a rune to buff it. You will do more damage by maxing Tactics having a high strength and meeting your weapon req than you will ever do with SoJ. While SoJ is good for some areas (ie Snake Dance Giant farming) it is just a poor choice for trolls/minos/griffons.

Lets compare 2 populare build attributes for a cyclone warrior with SoJ and one with Glads Def.

Attribs:

SoJ
Smite = 12
Healing = 8
Tactics = 13 (10 +3 sup)
Str = 0
Axe = 0

Glads
Smite = 0
Healing = 8
Tactics = 16 (12 +3 sup + 1 helm)
Str = 11 (8 + 3 sup)
Axe = 9 (7 +2 major)

In the SoJ build I put tactics high for Bons Def. because we need some energy regen correct? In that build we have 5 dead attribute points.

In the Glads build we have 1 dead attribute point. We also have a high strength for extra damage and armor penetration with cyclone. Our Tactics is high so glads and bons last longer. We still have our 8 healing for mending and our vamperic axe now does the below damage with each individual hit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esign

As an example, if you had a normal, customized (20% more damage) 15-22 damage Vamp Axe, and a level 9 Axe attribute, each swing with the weapon would deal:

15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) + 3 = 16.88 minimum damage
22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) + 3 = 23.36 maximum damage

While swinging the same sword with a level 12 attribute would deal:

15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) + 3= 21.0 minimum damage
22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) + 3= 29.4 maximum damage

Will this finally solve the question of which is better and why? I doubt it because some people will never learn. I am sure to get flamed for that comment and there are many out there that will conside parts of my post wrong and that is ok. This is what I consider the best possible build for farming trolls/minos/griffons and the above is why.

Cyclone Axe
Bons Def
Glads Def
Liv Vic
Mending

The rest of your skills are fluff. Use them for damage dealing/inturrupts/speed to destination it doesn't matter. You will never need more than that to kill the mob as fast as possible as a W/Mo.

I hope you all understand that I am writing this to speak directly to W/Mo builds for griffons/trolls/minos. There are many reasons to change your healing and stance tactics with other creatures in the game.

tryptamine_xxp · Feb 26, 2006, 06:46 AM // 06:46

i agree

. however ive made a crazy addition to this :P i also use vigorous spirit cause now that i get double hp i can easily wear tactics-axe superiors(even strenght for the armor penetration of3% :P). kinda makes it bit less safe but thats the way i go

. also pointing out its nice to use sprint to get there and a nice thrill of victory in case you wana kill boss!

w/mo farming ftw!!!

Zerg · Feb 26, 2006, 07:09 AM // 07:09

How does an Vamp axe go with Swordmanship?

Me NoFat · Feb 26, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zerg

How does an Vamp axe go with Swordmanship?

Changed...thanks for pointing that out.

Me NoFat · Feb 26, 2006, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by tryptamine_xxp

i agree

. however ive made a crazy addition to this :P i also use vigorous spirit cause now that i get double hp i can easily wear tactics-axe superiors(even strenght for the armor penetration of3% :P). kinda makes it bit less safe but thats the way i go

. also pointing out its nice to use sprint to get there and a nice thrill of victory in case you wana kill boss!

w/mo farming ftw!!!

I wear all those sups and never need more than liv vic and mending. Vig Spirit is not needed. My health never gets below 1/3 to 1/2. That is the entire point of this thread.

Sprint and ToV are viable options in th open space.

The Mo Show · Feb 26, 2006, 07:57 AM // 07:57

hmm why not get Victo's Blade (vamp haft) and use Hundred Blades? that would be plenty of healing, and you'd still have 4 skill slots left to do more damage

Me NoFat · Feb 26, 2006, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mo Show

hmm why not get Victo's Blade (vamp haft) and use Hundred Blades? that would be plenty of healing, and you'd still have 4 skill slots left to do more damage

You get more healing from cyclone axe and if you used hundred blades you lose Glads Def which is part damage reduction part damage. Why would you ever want to use hundred blades? It would simply increase the amount of time it takes to farm. Most of us farm for money and not enjoyment so to use an old phrase...time is money.

berko · Feb 26, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me NoFat

I wear all those sups and never need more than liv vic and mending. Vig Spirit is not needed. My health never gets below 1/3 to 1/2. That is the entire point of this thread.

Sprint and ToV are viable options in th open space.

I think people bring that extra health skills because they don't like seeing their health drop at all. It makes them feel safer when their health is full all of the time. That and the fact that they never bothered experimenting with the build and they just took it like it is. That's just my opinion.

Murder In China · Feb 26, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esign

As an example, if you had a normal, customized (20% more damage) 15-22 damage Vamp Axe, and a level 9 Axe attribute, each swing with the weapon would deal:

15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) + 3 = 16.88 minimum damage
22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) + 3 = 23.36 maximum damage

While swinging the same sword with a level 12 attribute would deal:

15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) + 3= 21.0 minimum damage
22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) + 3= 29.4 maximum damage

Typo, it's sword not axe.

Battle Torn · Feb 27, 2006, 01:35 PM // 13:35

I use Breeze when farming 20-25 griffons + minotaurs and can do this with some frequency so I always have this in my skillbar. I do agree however that this is overkill except in only certain circumstances.

Me NoFat · Feb 27, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle Torn

I use Breeze when farming 20-25 griffons + minotaurs and can do this with some frequency so I always have this in my skillbar. I do agree however that this is overkill except in only certain circumstances.

I could probably do about 40-50 griffons without healing breeze as my health never drops when doing 20+. The only problem is finding an area with that many griffons...lol

Battle Torn · Feb 28, 2006, 08:43 AM // 08:43

25 Griffons+minotaurs is the most you can get now unfortunatley, You usualy have a boss in there too and some pesky rockshot can pop up

agreed Breeze is overkill but there is still the odd occasion when it is necessary (if you run through a fire trap or get blided) I only farm with 330hp so this can warrant breeze.

I just dont need any other skills on my bar for farming...maybe something for quicker killing bosses

Bob Aeclucen · Feb 28, 2006, 09:40 AM // 09:40

I totally aggree with Me NoFat on this one. With the build he describes you can take on all the griffons + minotaurs at once without any problems. Same goes for Trolls. Even if rockshots come to annoy you, it won't matter, as long as you don't get close enought to them to fall in their traps. I've have 4+ rockshots on me while taking care of the griffons and it hasn't changed anything... Even took care of the rockshots at the end

. Healing Breeze would be overhealing, even when tanking all of them, unless you screw up somewhere you shouldn't get below 60-70% hp. Due to the horrendous 12 req of my axe, I have to farm with 330 hp too, I've never felt the need to add any more healing to my build. Now, I wish there would be a quick way to get rid of the pesky monk griffon boss and the ranger troll boss. Takes forever to kill them.

elric dragonsblood · Feb 28, 2006, 02:22 PM // 14:22

the monk boss i dont do but for the ranger troll i use.
watchfull spirit
heal sig
dolyak sig
bonneti's
desperation blow
wild blow <-- this ends stances like escape so you can get in alot more damage when the troll uses troll ungent
cyclone axe
gladiators defense

stength - 15 sup rune + hat
axe mastery - 9 minor rune
tactics - 14 sup rune
sup absorbtion
major vigor

full galdiators except for knights boots.
i use a vampiric cleaver of giantslaying
3-1 vampiric
6-28 req 9
+ 15% when enchanted
12% against giants

gold tall shield
16 armor 9 tactics
-2 when enchanted

i have 371 heath with this build and 27 energy and it works real good for me.

ForeverGoNe · Feb 28, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Thanks Me Nofat, I've been looking for the ideal farming build and I think I may have found it.

1 Quick question though, with balthazar's spirit you get adrenaline and energy out of it. Is your source of adren + energy primarily relying on cyclone axe and bonettis? Perhaps replacing healing sig for balthazar's spirit?

Thanks alot!

Battle Torn · Feb 28, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

I totally aggree with Me NoFat on this one. With the build he describes you can take on all the griffons + minotaurs at once without any problems. Same goes for Trolls. Even if rockshots come to annoy you, it won't matter, as long as you don't get close enought to them to fall in their traps. I've have 4+ rockshots on me while taking care of the griffons and it hasn't changed anything... Even took care of the rockshots at the end . Healing Breeze would be overhealing, even when tanking all of them, unless you screw up somewhere you shouldn't get below 60-70% hp. Due to the horrendous 12 req of my axe, I have to farm with 330 hp too, I've never felt the need to add any more healing to my build. Now, I wish there would be a quick way to get rid of the pesky monk griffon boss and the ranger troll boss. Takes forever to kill them.

Im confused a little, surely if your not using breeze in your bar then you are using another attack skill that is killing the boss quickly??? the secret is to use glads def when the boss uses berserker stance

The build I have used for 5 months is similar to Me No Fat from what I can make out from his post (apart from attribute allocation) and I am no beginner at farming. In fact I am constantly on the lookout to improve my build in order to achieve the best build for farming possible and have trained many people to farm and compared many builds with my own by pairing and comparing. I also know how to take on 25 griffons easily but I think the statement about 40-50 would be impossible...sorry but theoretical bragging aside, the number of hits you will take even with 75% chance to block would mean you would be dead before your next cyclone so the healing from it would be useless, and not to mention the damage you take while running to gather them all...at high numbers you will be dead before you group 50 of em together. There is absolutely no discussion in this. If you disagree then please be ready to come with me to augury and show me your tactics to prevent this with 25 as currently the most you can get there..... if in fact you actually know how to agro 25 enemies at once..its not easily done. I make a rule that never believe someone bragging in this forum, because I have proven so many wrong that I have lost count (ie, better builds, more gold etc) If you want to know what 25 look like then see below (note the rockshot on the radar attacking me also) also post vids or screenshots and put your money where your mouth is or Pm me in game.

My opinion on breeze stands until someone proves it un-necessary in every occasion while farming especially in high numbers. Dont confuse my build with one that takes 3 groups a time where this would apply look at this video to see, and you notice I dont use breeze here so indeed for normal farming it is overkill, but I disagree when fighting larger numbers.
http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=26421
If it werent for the traps or fighting 4-5 groups then I maybe would agree with you, but the traps are there and you do run through them sometimes....and when gathering more than 3 groups means you often criss cross over rockshot spawning areas that are trapped....I have done this countless times remember.

Lastly there is some confusion about farming... people farm 1-2 groups and think this is farming.... my discussion is regarding 5-6 groups of up to 25 enemies which changes the rules and anyone saying differently hasnt tried or been able to agro that many or still think back to the pre-nerf of SoJ and the unlimited chasing. I have the best armour in the game (FOW Glads set with FoW ascelon boots with sup absorption rune) also the best shield, axe, other runes, attribute allocation and there is nothing wrong with my timing so I know some comments are false and fictional based on what some think may happen with higher numbers rather than trying it out. Farming is only about timing and not skill.... there is nothing anyone can be doing witht he build discussed that hasnt been done before. The damage from 50 enemies (at lvl 20+) would put you under even with best amour, runes and 75% chance to miss in the time cyclone recharges....end of discussion.

wsmcasey · Feb 28, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

i have a 55monk that I've farmed with since about june of last year. it got boring so i started farming warrior for variety. The axe builds worked okay, but i've had better success with the sword line and tactics....riposte & deadly riposte with glads defense simply owns and kills super fast imo....now im working on a necro to farm with.

Archaic Nightmare · Feb 28, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Cheers for pointing out the obvious with your post but it is still very useful info. When I first started farming griffs I too used far too much healing as I knew no better and prob used the first one mentioned in the first post switching healing sig for vig spirit. The extra healing seems important though at first until you stop and think about what you are trying to achieve. Nowadays I simply run with the five important skills listed above with dolyak signet, executioners strike and either dismember or sprint. All five sup runes allows 8 healing, 12 strength, 12 axe and 14 tactics which allows for momentary lapses as boredom kicks in. The shield from Mamnoon Lagoon collector (+45 and -2 rec dam) and a vamp axe of fortitude gives 380 health and makes things all very simple. The rockshots are easy to deal with and can (as has been said before) be simply dealt with at the end after you pull them from the traps.

Battle Torn · Feb 28, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Thank you for poiting out the obvious. You have told everyone what they already know and said nothing about the previous posts. What happend if your fighting 20+ enemies and as you switch to a new enemy he runs (as he is the one thats waits but is in the group) and you follow right into a trap?...this happens and you would die mid fight if you didnt have breeze.... of course you can lead em away from the traps but the thing about traps is that sometimes as your herding larger numbers of groups you run into em just as the fight begins. I take breeze because of months of farming telling me what skills to take when those certain circumstances happen.

I dont feel this is a discussion any more use your head.....Breeze is overkill unless you farm 20-25 enemies... anyone saying otherwise can team with me and show me and then we can discuss this after in this forum. All Im asking is for proof to silence any 'would-be exagerators'...or even better still learn something I dont already know about farming which would be brill

I will await the Pm in game

SaintGreg · Feb 28, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

the original post is a bit biased. The build for SoJ warrior would not have such high tactics, because without glad's defense, tactics is useless as long as bonetti's lasts long enough to stay up between cyclone axes. In reality it would probably look more like:

Smite: 12
Healing: 8
Axe: 13 (9 + 3 + 1)
Strength: 8 (5 + 3)
Tactics: 3 (2 + 1)

if you really want to meet your shield's req (even though it affects less than half of the enemies) you could drop axe mastery and put it into strength or tactics whichever is your shields req.

At 12 smiting, SoJ lasts 18+20%=22 sec with 45 recharge. It does 41 damage per hit.

At 16 tactics, Glad's defense lasts 11 sec with 30 recharge. It does 33 damage per hit so 24.75 average damage per swing.

Glads defense does damage faster clearly, because the knockdown from SoJ slows attack speed by about 3 times or so, but the down time consideration means that they are closer than they look at first glance - each probably does close to the same damage output over the long haul. Glad's defense IS superior to SoJ for a warrior farming, but it isn't simply because of damage, the damage is pretty close.